Sent my 96 WS6 to the shop for a new PILOT bearing and i said if i NEED a clutch please call me and i will come and look at it, if it looks bad i will replace it. So i get a call saying that they replaced the clutch along w a few other things i had done. Needless to say, they never called me to get permission for a new clutch and i asked why they replced the clutch and they said because it wasnt right, it was unlike anything they ever seen before (this is not a performance shop by the way). They say the pressure plate was oversized and totally wrong, and the pilot bearing was in backwards. My clutch worked just fine before i took it in, it just didnt wanan go in gear easily (which they said was the pilot bearing). I asked if the previous clutch was stock because i didnt build the car and they said they have no idea and they replaced it with a stock clutch assembly. IDK the torque and hp ratings on a stock clutch so if i needed a clutch i was going to upgrade just to be safe but tehy did the install without my permission (which is illegal i hear) SO WHAT DO I DO NOW??? i was told i have about 380 hp and now a stock clutch..I am wondering why the pressure plate would be oversided and also if i have to worry about this stock clutch slipping on me under WOT. picking up my car in the AM and need some HELP ASAP!!!! please give youre 2 cense on this! thanks guys..
PS. I WAS TOLD THAT WHEN REPLACING A CLUTCH IT IS IMPORTANT TO RESURFACE OR REPLACE THE FLYWHEEL OR ELSE IT WILL EAT UP THE NEW CLUTCH. THEY NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT THE FLYWHEEL BEING TOUCHED, SO WHAT IF THEY NEVER REPLACED IT OR HAD IT RESURFACED???
Full Version: clutch update need help.
Sorry to hear about this new problem, it can be very frustrating.
Not to badmouth your car, becuz I wish I had it, but only to help you get the proper clutch...don't think your engine has 380 hp, they were close!, but not with a standard LT4 cam. Base engine is rated at 330 hp, add about 20 hp for the Borla and lack of CATs (meow!) and nothing for any ignition system mods or the aftermarket throttlebody. That makes it a solid 350 to 360 hp, which is really good (low 13 second times or high 12s). The stock clutch will probably wear out in less than 50,000 miles and is inadequate for even the stock engine, even if you never smoke the tires.
You are right, the car definitely needs a high performance clutch. There are several on the market, among the choices are the excellent LT4 clutch unit (pressure plate and driven disk). Along with a higher performance clutch, you will probably need to install the LT4 hydrualic master and slave cylinder. Not to worry, you can do this yourself. It's a cool system, comes completely assembled, loaded with hydraulic fluid and pre-bled. It's not all that hard to install, and once done, it will handle any higher clamping force pressure plate.
I'll bet you really enjoy fixing someone else's booboos, not to mention the stupidity of the dealer.
Not to badmouth your car, becuz I wish I had it, but only to help you get the proper clutch...don't think your engine has 380 hp, they were close!, but not with a standard LT4 cam. Base engine is rated at 330 hp, add about 20 hp for the Borla and lack of CATs (meow!) and nothing for any ignition system mods or the aftermarket throttlebody. That makes it a solid 350 to 360 hp, which is really good (low 13 second times or high 12s). The stock clutch will probably wear out in less than 50,000 miles and is inadequate for even the stock engine, even if you never smoke the tires.
You are right, the car definitely needs a high performance clutch. There are several on the market, among the choices are the excellent LT4 clutch unit (pressure plate and driven disk). Along with a higher performance clutch, you will probably need to install the LT4 hydrualic master and slave cylinder. Not to worry, you can do this yourself. It's a cool system, comes completely assembled, loaded with hydraulic fluid and pre-bled. It's not all that hard to install, and once done, it will handle any higher clamping force pressure plate.
I'll bet you really enjoy fixing someone else's booboos, not to mention the stupidity of the dealer.
QUOTE(Me Too @ May 14 2010, 12:18 PM) 
Sorry to hear about this new problem, it can be very frustrating.
Not to badmouth your car, becuz I wish I had it, but only to help you get the proper clutch...don't think your engine has 380 hp, they were close!, but not with a standard LT4 cam. Base engine is rated at 330 hp, add about 20 hp for the Borla and lack of CATs (meow!) and nothing for any ignition system mods or the aftermarket throttlebody. That makes it a solid 350 to 360 hp, which is really good (low 13 second times or high 12s). The stock clutch will probably wear out in less than 50,000 miles and is inadequate for even the stock engine, even if you never smoke the tires.
You are right, the car definitely needs a high performance clutch. There are several on the market, among the choices are the excellent LT4 clutch unit (pressure plate and driven disk). Along with a higher performance clutch, you will probably need to install the LT4 hydrualic master and slave cylinder. Not to worry, you can do this yourself. It's a cool system, comes completely assembled, loaded with hydraulic fluid and pre-bled. It's not all that hard to install, and once done, it will handle any higher clamping force pressure plate.
I'll bet you really enjoy fixing someone else's booboos, not to mention the stupidity of the dealer.
Not to badmouth your car, becuz I wish I had it, but only to help you get the proper clutch...don't think your engine has 380 hp, they were close!, but not with a standard LT4 cam. Base engine is rated at 330 hp, add about 20 hp for the Borla and lack of CATs (meow!) and nothing for any ignition system mods or the aftermarket throttlebody. That makes it a solid 350 to 360 hp, which is really good (low 13 second times or high 12s). The stock clutch will probably wear out in less than 50,000 miles and is inadequate for even the stock engine, even if you never smoke the tires.
You are right, the car definitely needs a high performance clutch. There are several on the market, among the choices are the excellent LT4 clutch unit (pressure plate and driven disk). Along with a higher performance clutch, you will probably need to install the LT4 hydrualic master and slave cylinder. Not to worry, you can do this yourself. It's a cool system, comes completely assembled, loaded with hydraulic fluid and pre-bled. It's not all that hard to install, and once done, it will handle any higher clamping force pressure plate.
I'll bet you really enjoy fixing someone else's booboos, not to mention the stupidity of the dealer.
lol well supposebly the car was dynoed by the orevious owner, it has been tuned and everything... but who knows it may NOT be anywhere close to 380hp but i still think i need an aftermarket clutch. i picked the car up earlier, and the catch point on the clutch now isnt until the pedal is almost ALL THE WAY OUT! and i still can hear a chattering noise when the clutch isnt pressed in, when i press it in the noise stops. I thought they would have fixed this also by doing the whole clutch. and i know youre suppose to brak the clutch in for like 1000 miles or something, but if a clutch is going to slip reguardless of broken in or not, would it slip right away too or only because it hasnt been broken in?
It's close enough to that hp, not to worry. The clutch should not slip even when new, but it should be broken in with some gentle starts, etc to polish the driven disc. However, you are right, your hp requires a better clutch. Again, not to worry, the OEM clutch will soon pack it in and give you a reason to replace it with an aftermarket unit (I really recommend the LT4 clutch and it really IS aftermarket and sold by Pontiac, so don't worry about the quality). The point is, you don't have to go all exotic to get a good clutch, just buy the LT4 unit, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg either.
Curses to you Pontiac for making a such a lousy OEM unit. It's the LT1 pressure plate that is bad, not enough clamping pressure. The LT4 pressure plate is far superior and much stronger.
Curses to you Pontiac for making a such a lousy OEM unit. It's the LT1 pressure plate that is bad, not enough clamping pressure. The LT4 pressure plate is far superior and much stronger.
[quote name='Me Too' date='May 14 2010, 06:54 PM' post='125606']
It's close enough to that hp, not to worry. The clutch should not slip even when new, but it should be broken in with some gentle starts, etc to polish the driven disc. However, you are right, your hp requires a better clutch. Again, not to worry, the OEM clutch will soon pack it in and give you a reason to replace it with an aftermarket unit (I really recommend the LT4 clutch and it really IS aftermarket and sold by Pontiac, so don't worry about the quality). The point is, you don't have to go all exotic to get a good clutch, just buy the LT4 unit, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg either.
Curses to you Pontiac for making a such a lousy OEM unit. It's the LT1 pressure plate that is bad, not enough clamping pressure. The LT4 pressure plate is far superior and much stronger.
When these people took off my clutch thety said it was like nothing they ever seen before that it was all backwards and not on right so they took it off and replaced it. i was talking to a buddy of mine and he said that they must never have done a clutch swap on a trans am before because the clutches are backwards from factory or something like that and they prolly broke it when they took it apart because its different to take off than a normal one, thats why they said that i needed a new one. Whats the scoop on this backwards clutch thing? And reason i asked about the clutch slipping being brand new is because i know that its supposed to be broken in slowly but i was curious so i gave it a romp, and it slipped all the way from 1st through 2nd and i made it to about 45mph. Does this prove taht the stock clutch is going to be insufficient for my car wether broken in or not? It still makes the same chattering noises also, i think it sounds a little worse now. it chatters lightly at first then a few seconds later it gets louder and louder then it quiets down again and just repeats that process. all the chattering stops when i press the clutch in. ALSO it sounds like i have an exhaust leak down by my tranny but sounds more like a "Chuga chuga chuga chuga" noise than anything. but im almost certain i dont have an exhaust leak there because they looked at the exhaust since i had my header gasket replaced. could this be the tranny?
It's close enough to that hp, not to worry. The clutch should not slip even when new, but it should be broken in with some gentle starts, etc to polish the driven disc. However, you are right, your hp requires a better clutch. Again, not to worry, the OEM clutch will soon pack it in and give you a reason to replace it with an aftermarket unit (I really recommend the LT4 clutch and it really IS aftermarket and sold by Pontiac, so don't worry about the quality). The point is, you don't have to go all exotic to get a good clutch, just buy the LT4 unit, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg either.
Curses to you Pontiac for making a such a lousy OEM unit. It's the LT1 pressure plate that is bad, not enough clamping pressure. The LT4 pressure plate is far superior and much stronger.
When these people took off my clutch thety said it was like nothing they ever seen before that it was all backwards and not on right so they took it off and replaced it. i was talking to a buddy of mine and he said that they must never have done a clutch swap on a trans am before because the clutches are backwards from factory or something like that and they prolly broke it when they took it apart because its different to take off than a normal one, thats why they said that i needed a new one. Whats the scoop on this backwards clutch thing? And reason i asked about the clutch slipping being brand new is because i know that its supposed to be broken in slowly but i was curious so i gave it a romp, and it slipped all the way from 1st through 2nd and i made it to about 45mph. Does this prove taht the stock clutch is going to be insufficient for my car wether broken in or not? It still makes the same chattering noises also, i think it sounds a little worse now. it chatters lightly at first then a few seconds later it gets louder and louder then it quiets down again and just repeats that process. all the chattering stops when i press the clutch in. ALSO it sounds like i have an exhaust leak down by my tranny but sounds more like a "Chuga chuga chuga chuga" noise than anything. but im almost certain i dont have an exhaust leak there because they looked at the exhaust since i had my header gasket replaced. could this be the tranny?
My car had the same hp as yours does now. Even with a brand new OEM clutch it did not slip. Something is wrong with the installation. Yes, the clutch release is called a "backwards" system. It used to be that the clutch release bearing was pushed into the pressure plate. However, becuz Firebirds/Camaros use a hydraulic unit, it is a "pull" and not a "push". It is practically impossible to install the release bearing backwards, but have seen it done. No self-respecting mechanic should be able to make that mistake. If your clutch is slipping, it needs to be looked at. Was the flywheel machined when the new clucth was installed? If it wasn't and it needs to be replaced, don't forget to transfer the weights from the old one to the exact same spot on the new flywheel or your engine will be out of balance forever.
Some of the problems could be the main shaft input bearing on your transmission. Here's the scoop. The bearing is a conical roller bearing. Adjusting free play on the bearing takes up both radial and axial loads. Axial load is along the input shaft, and radial is everything else. So, adjusting the bearing load in or out takes up axial play, but since the bearing is conical it also takes up radial play. If the bearing goes out of adjustment, it is radial play that you are hearing and feeling. Axial play really isn't too big of a deal unless it gets really bad--except of course, on this type of transmission. It needs to be looked at and corrected pretty quickly, becuz it means that main input shaft is just thrashing around in there.
The T56 is a good transmission, but this conical bearing is kinda the Achilles Heel of the thing. Adjusted correctly, it will last a long, long time. Incorrect adjustment and it will wear out very fast. Even new transmissions can be adjusted badly. I went thru two of them, before finding a good one and it lasted forever. Before cursing GM for the transmission---remember the old Muncy M20, 21 and 22? Those were really heavy duty trannys. However, they used a ball bearing main input shaft bearing. Those stupid things didn't have the problems of the T56, but the bearing was noisy and would just wear rignt into the case, that was bad news. So, almost any transmission that gets any age on it can have problems.
Hope this helps. Keep the faith, you've got a really nice car, just have to fix it is all..... Think of it this way, you could be stuck with a Civic.
Some of the problems could be the main shaft input bearing on your transmission. Here's the scoop. The bearing is a conical roller bearing. Adjusting free play on the bearing takes up both radial and axial loads. Axial load is along the input shaft, and radial is everything else. So, adjusting the bearing load in or out takes up axial play, but since the bearing is conical it also takes up radial play. If the bearing goes out of adjustment, it is radial play that you are hearing and feeling. Axial play really isn't too big of a deal unless it gets really bad--except of course, on this type of transmission. It needs to be looked at and corrected pretty quickly, becuz it means that main input shaft is just thrashing around in there.
The T56 is a good transmission, but this conical bearing is kinda the Achilles Heel of the thing. Adjusted correctly, it will last a long, long time. Incorrect adjustment and it will wear out very fast. Even new transmissions can be adjusted badly. I went thru two of them, before finding a good one and it lasted forever. Before cursing GM for the transmission---remember the old Muncy M20, 21 and 22? Those were really heavy duty trannys. However, they used a ball bearing main input shaft bearing. Those stupid things didn't have the problems of the T56, but the bearing was noisy and would just wear rignt into the case, that was bad news. So, almost any transmission that gets any age on it can have problems.
Hope this helps. Keep the faith, you've got a really nice car, just have to fix it is all..... Think of it this way, you could be stuck with a Civic.
QUOTE(Me Too @ May 15 2010, 01:46 PM)
My car had the same hp as yours does now. Even with a brand new OEM clutch it did not slip. Something is wrong with the installation. Yes, the clutch release is called a "backwards" system. It used to be that the clutch release bearing was pushed into the pressure plate. However, becuz Firebirds/Camaros use a hydraulic unit, it is a "pull" and not a "push". It is practically impossible to install the release bearing backwards, but have seen it done. No self-respecting mechanic should be able to make that mistake. If your clutch is slipping, it needs to be looked at. Was the flywheel machined when the new clucth was installed? If it wasn't and it needs to be replaced, don't forget to transfer the weights from the old one to the exact same spot on the new flywheel or your engine will be out of balance forever.
Some of the problems could be the main shaft input bearing on your transmission. Here's the scoop. The bearing is a conical roller bearing. Adjusting free play on the bearing takes up both radial and axial loads. Axial load is along the input shaft, and radial is everything else. So, adjusting the bearing load in or out takes up axial play, but since the bearing is conical it also takes up radial play. If the bearing goes out of adjustment, it is radial play that you are hearing and feeling. Axial play really isn't too big of a deal unless it gets really bad--except of course, on this type of transmission. It needs to be looked at and corrected pretty quickly, becuz it means that main input shaft is just thrashing around in there.
The T56 is a good transmission, but this conical bearing is kinda the Achilles Heel of the thing. Adjusted correctly, it will last a long, long time. Incorrect adjustment and it will wear out very fast. Even new transmissions can be adjusted badly. I went thru two of them, before finding a good one and it lasted forever. Before cursing GM for the transmission---remember the old Muncy M20, 21 and 22? Those were really heavy duty trannys. However, they used a ball bearing main input shaft bearing. Those stupid things didn't have the problems of the T56, but the bearing was noisy and would just wear rignt into the case, that was bad news. So, almost any transmission that gets any age on it can have problems.
Hope this helps. Keep the faith, you've got a really nice car, just have to fix it is all..... Think of it this way, you could be stuck with a Civic.
Some of the problems could be the main shaft input bearing on your transmission. Here's the scoop. The bearing is a conical roller bearing. Adjusting free play on the bearing takes up both radial and axial loads. Axial load is along the input shaft, and radial is everything else. So, adjusting the bearing load in or out takes up axial play, but since the bearing is conical it also takes up radial play. If the bearing goes out of adjustment, it is radial play that you are hearing and feeling. Axial play really isn't too big of a deal unless it gets really bad--except of course, on this type of transmission. It needs to be looked at and corrected pretty quickly, becuz it means that main input shaft is just thrashing around in there.
The T56 is a good transmission, but this conical bearing is kinda the Achilles Heel of the thing. Adjusted correctly, it will last a long, long time. Incorrect adjustment and it will wear out very fast. Even new transmissions can be adjusted badly. I went thru two of them, before finding a good one and it lasted forever. Before cursing GM for the transmission---remember the old Muncy M20, 21 and 22? Those were really heavy duty trannys. However, they used a ball bearing main input shaft bearing. Those stupid things didn't have the problems of the T56, but the bearing was noisy and would just wear rignt into the case, that was bad news. So, almost any transmission that gets any age on it can have problems.
Hope this helps. Keep the faith, you've got a really nice car, just have to fix it is all..... Think of it this way, you could be stuck with a Civic.
Ummm..i didnt get a chance to ask if they replaced or resurfaced the flywheel yet because i was not there when the car was picked up. i tried to go up there and talk to them but they were closed early friday. BUT they did put my old clutch in my hatch and i didnt know..i found it kast night after hearing clanking noises LOL they said that the pressure plate was way oversized, theyre full of crap!!!! the clutch disk and the pressure plate are the same diameter at contact point soooooo idk why she lied. and the pressure plate doesnt look damaged at all whatsoever. Im not too sure about what the wear normally looks like on a clutch disk but it looks as if someone took a grinder wheel and made little grind spots everywhere. not very rouch just smooth shiny looking spots all over it (both sides of the disk.) Im not sure if its an aftermarket clutch or not..it says VALEO on the pressure plate. the clutch disk has 5 springs on it and is pretty light (dont know the normal weight of a clutch disk). all i know is that the clutch i have now which is stock and the old clutch are totally different in performance and the catch point of the pedal. im going to save some money and buy a new clutch and change it myself
That's an OEM clutch unit. The driven disk should be uniformly shiny--not reflective, but like a shiny satin paint. It should also be a uniform color. Any black carbon looking parts show that it was slipping. A new one will probably have a different clutch take up or engagement feel.
QUOTE(Me Too @ May 16 2010, 03:06 PM)
That's an OEM clutch unit. The driven disk should be uniformly shiny--not reflective, but like a shiny satin paint. It should also be a uniform color. Any black carbon looking parts show that it was slipping. A new one will probably have a different clutch take up or engagement feel.
so the clutch that came out was stock? because i searched it and it says aftermarket. and it had a way stiffer pedal and catch point. seemed like the car performed better with the old clutch also..i can feel it slipping now and even see the rpms jump
The OEM clutch was made by Valeo. In fact, that type of pressure plate is called a "valeo" type. There could also have been other manufacturers, certainly GM used a variety of suppliers. Also, there are only a few clutch manufacturers in the US, they supply everyone.
It's like brake rotors, buy a replacement and chances are, unless you get a main brand, like Brembo--the rotor could be made by any of about 3 or 4 manufacturers in the US, but that is all--they make them for dozens of namebrands. However, the Chinese have recently been flooding the US with cheapie rotors. I'd be really careful about getting those parts--they can't even make dogfood right, let alone something as critical as a brake rotor, flywheel, clutch or engine parts.
Yes, different clutches will have a different feel. When the LT4 clutch and pressure plate were installed in my car, it felt completely different than the OEM.
It's like brake rotors, buy a replacement and chances are, unless you get a main brand, like Brembo--the rotor could be made by any of about 3 or 4 manufacturers in the US, but that is all--they make them for dozens of namebrands. However, the Chinese have recently been flooding the US with cheapie rotors. I'd be really careful about getting those parts--they can't even make dogfood right, let alone something as critical as a brake rotor, flywheel, clutch or engine parts.
Yes, different clutches will have a different feel. When the LT4 clutch and pressure plate were installed in my car, it felt completely different than the OEM.
Hmmm... Very long but interesting post. This whole thing just sounds like a total whack job on this "repair shops" part. This is one of the reasons I do all my own work. When you R+R a clutch assy. you Always either resurface or replace the flywheel paying particular attention to the weights as Me Too mentioned. This though ,sounds like the least of your worries. With the noise you are experiancing, it sounds like the whole installation was incorrectly performed. Now on to the legal aspect. I'm no lawyer, but I do know that a repair shop has to provide you with either a written or oral diagnosis and estimate and have you agree to it ,or sign it authorizing them to procede with the repairs. In other words, they can't just go hanging parts on there without your oral or written consent. If I were you I would go back there, make them aware of this, demand my money back,(theatening legal action if necessary), and redo the job myself. And while you're at it, report them to the B.B.B. This is a shame this happened to you , but live and learn from your mistakes. Next time you would do well to research the integrity of the shop through the B.B.B, word-of-mouth and other sources before using their services, because IMO there are a lot more shadier ones out there than reputable ones. Dave.
QUOTE(Blu2000 @ May 18 2010, 07:44 PM)
Hmmm... Very long but interesting post. This whole thing just sounds like a total whack job on this "repair shops" part. This is one of the reasons I do all my own work. When you R+R a clutch assy. you Always either resurface or replace the flywheel paying particular attention to the weights as Me Too mentioned. This though ,sounds like the least of your worries. With the noise you are experiancing, it sounds like the whole installation was incorrectly performed. Now on to the legal aspect. I'm no lawyer, but I do know that a repair shop has to provide you with either a written or oral diagnosis and estimate and have you agree to it ,or sign it authorizing them to procede with the repairs. In other words, they can't just go hanging parts on there without your oral or written consent. If I were you I would go back there, make them aware of this, demand my money back,(theatening legal action if necessary), and redo the job myself. And while you're at it, report them to the B.B.B. This is a shame this happened to you , but live and learn from your mistakes. Next time you would do well to research the integrity of the shop through the B.B.B, word-of-mouth and other sources before using their services, because IMO there are a lot more shadier ones out there than reputable ones. Dave.
okay thanks for the info. i still havent found out if the clutch that came out is stock or not lol it felt alot stronger. now the car just feels weaker..and another thing...they told me that im goin to need a new radiator because its leaking..i have NEVER EVER seen my car leak a drop anywhwere. soon as i got it back from them..i look at the front pass side under the bumber and its rapidly dripping coolant..i think they sabatoged my car thinking i will just buy a new radiator because they say i need a new one. so now i do need one and it never leaked before. The whole deal is very shady. BUT im stuck with what i have now because i didnt pay for the work and the person who paid for it is a good friend of them and says that i embarrasses him by saying "i dont think a stock clutch will do and you should have never touched it without asking." FML
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