I just posted what I'm about to say as a response today to an earlier post in the 'Techniques' Section of the message boards.  There are like two other posts regarding this subject and I just wanted to take a moment to clear up some myth that surrounds 'manually' shifting your Stock 4L60e automatic transmission.  note: S-T-O-C-K.  Meaning, I don’t want to flood the boards w/ people telling me "...well I get awesome response out of shifting my tranny after I put in a shift kit, etc..." or anything else of that sort...

So here we go, the skinny on the stock 4L60e:

Reply to: Manually shifting an Auto
Posted: Feb. 22 2003, 09:20

Back to the original question.  The slap-shift misconception w/ the 4L60e auto tranny (as it comes from the factory) in the fact that it might help the car.  In my experience this is not the case.  All of you who say "Oh the car loves it b/c I added this, that, a converter, and a shift kit" that’s all good and well.  But if your Tranny is bone stock, it is strictly governed by the line pressure w/in the 4L60e.  Hence, your rolling down the street, shifting "manually", and there is a very noticeable delay in your shift and the tranny's shift.  That is not b/c the car hadn't reached high enough revs, or the driver had done something wrong. (what I had originally thought before being told differently) It's simply b/c there wasn't enough line pressure in the tranny to shift at that point.  I don't know about you, but I have my feelings about manual transmissions in a drag racing scenario to begin with as far as consistency is concerned. (6-speed guys: This is for the newer to average bracket racers)  And attempting to 'manually' shift a STOCK 4L60e is even more inconsistent than that.

I was lucky enough to get a hold of a Formula w/ the factory "Transmission Perform" button in the center console.  I hit it every time I line-up, and she shifts out at redline, barking the tires along the way.  But here again this is not a stock car.

Long story short, 'manually' shifting a STOCK 4L60e is not a practical means of shaving times or adding performance to your bird.  I'd even venture to say it does absolutely no good at all.

~Nick
LP Performance Motorsports

A manual shift car is not all that consistent and when dialing up brackets at the strip, a manual is probably the worst transmission to have.  But for pure hp to the rear wheels (we are talking stock or nearly stock guys, not the special built 9 second "street" car), the manual is the best since it takes less hp to turn it=less hp lost to heat within the transmission.

Manually shifting an auto through the 1/4 miles makes no since at all.  

To beat the guy with the manual and brackets aren't necessary, get him to make a mistake, and put 20-30  more hp in your engine--end of problem.  But then, manuals are so-o-o-o-o-o much more fun!

I just wanted to post a reply to this to get it back up on the 'New Posts' board.  I know a lot of people hang out there when they don’t have time to dig into the other boards. I just think since 3 out of 8 posts in the techniques section pertained to this same subject, it warrants a few more views...

Thanks!,
~Nick
LP Performance Motorsports

ok, 1) my best time with my car stock was shifting it manually, and the line pressure is there but the electronics overrides the pressure and will not allow a (bang) quick shift, (the shifts are controled by line pressure, MPH, and throttle position) furethermore by having it in a lower gear your fighting engine speed so as soon as the shift happens your applying a braking force to the clutches and actually slowing down the car (for a millisecond) this does not apply to old transmissions they would take well to manually shifting. but not that much can be achieved from it. I have posted before that my quickest times were while manually shifting and they were. I ran .2 faster while manually shifting my STOCK trans. Now that isn't saying it was all transmission, it could have been a better launch, traction who knows. OK manually downshifting in a street race scenario is advantagous because the automatic might be in OD and running at a speed where a kickdown wont happen right away. Even auto's can get caught in a wrong gear in certain instances. As for repeatablitly an automatic with a highstall converter and a shiftkit is much more repeatable  than a manual. but leave it in drive and go from there. This is how I (drag/from a stop) race now even with a built tranny.

Doug

i shift on my auto Monte...shaves 1 second off than just leaving it on overdrive  ::</font>

When I automatically shift my manual, well, it doesn't work.  

Is it possible to cause premature drivetrain wear by downshifting an A4 into the correct gear for any certain "rolling start street race" scenario even if you do it at a speed that doesn't allow the motor to overrev? Also, can I overrev and cause engine damage if I don't get it into the next gear at the right time when accelerating, or will it just hit a rev limiter/fuel cut-out and cost me the race?

I keep the May 1994 issue of Motor Trend as a handy reference for this very subject. An article called "Full Auto Shootout" compared automatic versions of the Formula, Corvette, RX-7, and Supra Turbo. In the pages of the article is a dialog box comparing the manual versions of these cars with their automatic counterparts from 0-60. The manual/automatic results were: Corvette - 5.3/5.5, RX-7 - 5.4/6.0, Supra Turbo - 4.9/5.6, and Formula - 6.1/5.8! I know that this is just one article, but it has satisfied a need that I've had since ordering the car because I couldn't get the manual. It's interesting that the Formula is the only one who's automatic was faster than the manual.

Don't know much about that...... But when I was new at this, first got the car (sis was in shotgun), and didn't know a thing about power braking, I had the engine in Neutral, reved it to about 2K and dropped it into drive ............. That causes premature wear, as I heard a BANG! . Learned my lesson $$1.5K later..... At least I got a nice fat (a little over half as big as my coolant radiator) Transmission cooler mounted to the front of my bird!! Pretty good tranny company threw it in there as part of the service deal.

So starting in Neutral and manually rowing through the auto is NOT a good idea....

ok people we are talkign about 2 different things here, 1) a neutral drop reving the engine with the trany in neutral and slamming it into gear is stupid and will blow up your tranny in short order. Don't beleive me just go do it a few times and let me know! I have rebuilt tons of GM trannies, not that I am all knowing but a neutral slam is just plain dumb!
OK next manually shifting a A4 1) as long as you do not over rev the STOCK automatic tranny it will not hurt anything, the early 4L60's actually shifted too firm from the factory and they where made to shift smoother in 94. the 4L60 like to de driven in 3rd until you are over 45MPH then a manual shift to 4th should be made. While racing the only advantage you can get out of manually shifting a STOCK Auto is to drop it down a gear to get the revs up a little higher but this should also be accomplished by stomping the gas and letting the cable or computer kicj the trany down a gear! If you have a car coming up next to you fast and your in 4th at low revs feel free to drop to 2 and get on the gas just make sure to match the revs with your upshift as to not over rev the car too much.

Doug

Yeah I did the neutral to drive thing on accident, not try to powerbrake(that's just foot work) or anything, just revving at a white haired "enthusiast" who had just revved his beautiful '55 Chevy at me. When I did it, the light turned green shortly there after and I thought the revs had dropped back to idle, but I think I was about 500rpms above idle and it chirped the tires. Nothing I would want to do again, but thankfully I don't think I hurt the tranny on that one. While typing this, I read Doug's new response and he answered just what I was asking. The boys I heard talking about street racing their f-bodies A4s said they like to start from a 20mph roll in 1st at about 3,000 - 4,000 revs, depending on the final drive. Getting it down to first from speed was/is my main concern and question. Of course I'm not going to yank it down into 1 from 60mph, but judging from what I've read, it is completely safe to drop it down manually as long as you don't let the motor over-rev, right?

With the Rev-limiter in place can you 'over-rev' while manually shifitng? Or is it not good performance to shift right at the redline like the performance switch on the 94s do??

And Doug, I was joking about the Neutral Drop.......like you said, I did it once, and I learned a whole lot about performance cars really fast! Unfortunatley it wasn't fun.

welll 94, if you keep a car in 1 or 2 and rev it to redline you're asking for trouble. In the right gear seing the redline at WOT isn't an issue, I was talking about holding it in a lower gear and revving the hell out of it.

Doug

Autos are far more consistent during bracket racing. Manuals can be used, but why would you want to? Also, there is far less of a chance of making a booboo with an auto. Don't get me wrong, manuals have their place (I have one), but I don't think bracket racing, or even autoX is the place for a manual.

I had an auto once (yeah, yeah, I know, please don't laugh). Tried to manually shift it in an autocross and the same thing happened. It was slow, too slow. Went out again, and let the auto do the shifting. WoooHoooo, did the top time of the day in my class. Unfortunately, only the first run counted.

Well. I can never again say that Charles doesn't tell both sides of the story, and gives us a little humor doing it. Not kissing your ###### Charles just glad to see you tellingit like it is. I will say I love manuals, on the funometer there is nothing like it, and it makes a car seem so voilent because of the slamming of the clutch, and the gearsm and the cut out in the power. Just a bit of info. The new paddle shifter in the Grand Prix is actually being looked at for the new C6 vettes, and Cadies it rips off shifts in 250 milliseconds!

Doug

manuals do look more fun

The new paddle shifters in various cars are fantastic. I've driven one in a Toyota Cetlica GTS. However, it was slower than the manual 6 spd. This one was an auto with a different kind of shifter, that is all it was. And, as with any auto, they are down on rear wheel hp as compared to a manual. But we know how to fix that, don't we?

Also, read about the paddle shifters in one of the new Ferraris (Road & Track?), it was also down on speed compared to the manual trans. My thoughts are that the paddle shifters are loads of fun, probably faster across the intersection and in town than a manual, and maybe would be very competitive if the number of gears were the same as the manual, but so far very few are that way.

If the car companies would come out with a paddle selected 6 spd auto, that would be fun! I can imagine that, eventually, they will take the place of manual transmissions, and those manual things will be for "retro-grouches" like me.

BMW is coming out with a 7 speed padddle shifted automatic (yes 7speed) at least I think it is BMW might be Audi! (just read it inone of my car mags) The thing about the paddle shifted auto's is they can turn everyone into Michael Shumacher! you down shift and they even blip the throttle to revmatch. They are consistant as hell in autoscross, and like i said shift in 250 milliseconds, but in the real world a manual is way more fun that I will agree with, hey my Formula is an auto, and the way it is set up alot of fun, but I have owned a bunch of manual muscle cars and they are AWESOME.

Doug

I have a question kind of on the subject and kind of not.
What is the phycology behind the "skip shift" from 1st to 3rd?
I am "required" to go from 1st to 3rd if I am not "up to speed".
This makes to scense to me.
Im all ready not going fast enough for second, why put me in 3rd?
I just usually let off the gas and put it in 2nd, or step on it and put it in 2nd.

I was also asked by someone, when we were talking about the drag strip, if I "knew how to shift"?
(Ive not yet raced on a strip, but want to soooooooooo bad!)
What was he meaning by this as I was to baffeled at the time to ask.
I was thinking, "Well, ugh yeah...I drove the car from Tennesee to Michigan. I think I "know how to shift".

One more while I am asking all the questions I have had forever Totaly off the subject...
Whats the "Low TracK" light for?
Is it for when you are spinning your tires?
Why need notification?

I REALLY am a smart gal...LOL

Sounds to me like someone was trying to impress you with "THEIR" lack of knowledge.

There are certain "techniques" for getting away from the green light with a 6 spd and to keep the rear tires from going up in smoke. One of them involves what we used to call "sidestepping the clutch". All you do is bring up the revs just a bit, float the clutch right to the point of engagement--do it just long enough to get the car moving and then fully engage the clutch and feed in the gas. Too much gas and the tires break loose killing your ET. Getting the car started is the important part. After that rev the engine to the redline and shift as fast as you can. Oh, yeah...practice, practice, practice and more practice. Be careful with the clutch, the stock ones aren't very strong.

What you have noticed is called the "skip shift". It locks out 2nd and 3rd and forces the shift from 1st to 4th (not 3rd). It is to get better gas mileage. There are a variety of skip shift eliminators out there, some work, some don't. Shop for one that states it won't set a trouble code. Or, fake the shift to 4th and then go back to 2nd--cheaper and works everytime (it's what I do...sometimes, like when stuck in traffic).

The Low Trac light is standard and can be activated when one tire is slipping, whether braking or smoking 'em. If you are braking and see it, pay attention. If smokin' 'em and see it, you might be losing some ET in the 1/4 or just having some fun or ignore it. I've never seen mine come on during acceleration, for some reason, but have seen it during braking.

Yes you are correct.
It is 1st to 4th.
I havent drove my bird in a few months as the stock clutch I just put in it last year has gone out.
I wanted to get a Centerforce, but will have to wait on that.
Low Track light just comes on when I am getting on it, not when I brake but I will watch for it when I brake. Thanks.
I dont think I will be practicing the Side Stepping. Not until I get more than a stock clutch.
I also do the fake into 4th and back to 2nd. I had just forgotten this tech as I havent driven it for a while
I look forward to getting it fixed in a few weeks:)
Thanks for the reply,
Judy

Have never tried a Centerforce clutch, but others have stated they are really good, maybe someone on this forum has one and can give you a recommendation. Centerforce has a unique system of bob weights that actually press the pressure plate harder on the driven disc as the rpms pick up. The only problem that I see with any aftermarket clutch is will it be compatible with the slave cylinder--too strong and the slave cylinder won't work quite so well.

I'm looking at a clutch (pressure plate and driven disc) sold by Ram thru Summit. They advertise one that will handle 400 hp--call it a "heavy duty" clutch. It uses a traditional driven disc. While I agree that the high performance ceramic driven discs are probably far superior in competition, I don't do that (except for the occaasional ricer racer), sometimes they are not good in stop and go and cold weather operation.

The problem with our stock clutches is that the friction material burns and changes composition when it is floated or gets hot from "excessive" use. It doesn't just wear faster, actually changes composition and that affects the amt of friction that it has. Consequently, less friction, means more slipping, that builds up heat and then the flywheel is ruined.

If your flywheel is ruined, probably won't pay to have it ground--throws it out of balance. Might be better to buy a new one from GM, SLP (they sell a lighter flywheel) or South Bend Clutches--South Bend, IN (they sell a real light one that is aluminum with a replaceable steel insert). Either way, make absolutely certain that the offset balance weights that are in the stock flywheel are transferred to the new flywheel or your engine will be out of balance.

It's usually not good to see your "low trac" illuminate when cornering, either. I've done that once or twice. Never lost is though.

Charles,
Thanks you!
I also have been wondering if I can get just the parts I need.
I was told I dont need the whole kit, just the pressure plate. ???
Where can I get a better pressure plate if I can get by with just it?
I know when you are burning out your clutch it smells just like burning rubber.
Thanks for the second thought on Centerforce!
I have not yet raced on the strip-rice racers here too- as of yet, but seeings as I only live 40 minutes from Bristol Motor Raceway-Thunder Valley is thier drag strip-I go to the races a lot and sit and dream of the time I can be a competitor.
One day I will have my own post in "Times and Slips"
Thanks for helping me have the right parts to get there:)
Judy

the " LOW TRAC" or low traction light is part of your ABS system and is illuminated when the ABS senses a wheel slipping (usually under braking) I have never had mine illuminate during acceleration, and only in the wet when the ABS has intervened. Ok, I have an auto but have had centerforces in all my old manuals, and also having been in the tranny business I will say this: Centerforce is a great clutch, but overpriced unless you are constantly racing the car! if you are going to the track week in and week out Centerforce is the way to go (at least in my experience) Charles is also right RAM cluches are good, and MOST tranny shops (at least in my area) use LUK clutches for cheaper price and they last as long as stock parts do!

Doug

Well I won't be on the track week after week, but I would like parts that will be better than stock.